Re: [solved]Rear suspension

by Melitos Sun 09 Apr 2017, 3:25 pm

Grarea wrote:

So, our original shocks are the cheap unserviceable type I take it.

That is correct

BR
Antti

by Grarea Sun 09 Apr 2017, 3:50 pm

Well, putting the rear suspension onto notch four has made quite a difference.
It rides much better.
Gives me much more confidence in the corners and on the rougher roads.
Feels much more 'something' (insert the correct word here). (Would 'planted' be the right one? Perhaps 'settled' or 'right' or 'less wallowy' maybe (Although, as someone else said, I hadn't realised it was), anyway, much much better.)

Very Happy

by **eternally_troubled** Sun 09 Apr 2017, 9:24 pm

Glad it feels better. TBH I think the original setting (2) was probably designed at the 'soft' end of things.

I'm pretty sure that one side is harder to move than the other just because it is more 'gummed up' or because more 'crap' has worked it's way down between the slidey ring and the shock. Might be worth dripping a little thin oil down there and moving it around a bit to free things up.

by Grarea Sun 09 Apr 2017, 10:04 pm

eternally_troubled wrote:Glad it feels better. TBH I think the original setting (2) was probably designed at the 'soft' end of things.

I'm pretty sure that one side is harder to move than the other just because it is more 'gummed up' or because more 'crap' has worked it's way down between the slidey ring and the shock. Might be worth dripping a little thin oil down there and moving it around a bit to free things up.

Good idea.

by hh_12345 Mon 10 Apr 2017, 9:23 am

trevor machine wrote:Have you noticed them leaking? Tbh, I don't really understand how they *can* go unless they start to lose oil. I guess the steel in the spring can become "fatigued", theoretically. But it's being compressed not stretched, so I don't really see how that can happen. Anyway - good question. I'd like to know the answer too.

There have not been any leaks since I got the bike. The shocks might have leaked already - as was the with the front - there was just a tiny ammount of muddy mess inside - not enough to leak.

Or maybe the suspension oil deteriorates over the years and quality of damping and compression worsens.

Judging by the forks the design of the suspension appears to be quite simple and reliable - so I am sure there is nothing to break inside the rear shocks.

If the springs got sort of worn out maybe there would be some additional suspension sag.

So I guess poor performance is due to poor oil quality/level.

by trevor machine Mon 10 Apr 2017, 11:30 am

You are right - the quality of the oil within the shock absorbers will definitely deteriorate over time. The only questions are how much time and how significant the resultant deterioration will be. Assuming that the volume of the oil remains constant (i.e. the shocks develop no leaks), I would imagine that its deterioration would not have that much effect on the compression and dampening properties of shock absorption - and this because I would guess that it is just as hard to compress oil that is old as it is to compress oil that is fresh. Afaik, no liquid of any kind likes to be forced to occupy a smaller space than its own volume - so in light of that I'm thinking old or new might not make a noticeable difference. Far more pertinent will be the state of the exterior steel and particularly the spring itself, of course (as stated above, corrosion of said spring is sure to affect its ability to compress and stretch), and the volume of oil within the shock absorber. This is me just speculating in all this, by the way. I know I've typed it in a tone that might well imply a degree of certainty or real knowledge - but I actually have neither. ; - )

by trevor machine Mon 10 Apr 2017, 11:33 am

Ok - wait. I just realised I'm wrong. If what I said about oil and the compression of liquid was correct, there would be no difference between the suspending properties of light and heavier weight fork oil - but of course the former makes for springier suspension, and the latter can be used to "tame" that.

by **stormbringer** Mon 10 Apr 2017, 1:13 pm

Hmmm. I've now written an email to the nice folks at Öhlins, asking them if shocks are available for our bikes. I like the idea of them being repairable. And quality made. You may think it's daft to spend a lot of money on what can be had much cheaper elsewhere, but 'elsewhere' can't be renovated - and is much likely of a lesser finish etc overall.

We've all heard that buying cheap can become expensive over time. Will buying quality then be a better deal over time?

Also, I like the fact that this is not a far-east-el-cheapo-mentality-brand. They come out of Sweden, the home of Saab and Volvo.

Waiting for reply-mail...

by hh_12345 Mon 10 Apr 2017, 3:34 pm

stormbringer wrote:Also, I like the fact that this is not a far-east-el-cheapo-mentality-brand. They come out of Sweden, the home of Saab and Volvo.

Ironically both volvo and saab have been Chinese owned for several years. Laughing

by hh_12345 Mon 10 Apr 2017, 3:38 pm

Serviceable shocks are to be preferred to sealed ones and I think that quality suspension is always worth the extra money.

I think wilbers also makes shocks for the cb that might be a good choice.

by Melitos Mon 10 Apr 2017, 3:43 pm

trevor machine wrote:Ok - wait. I just realised I'm wrong. If what I said about oil and the compression of liquid was correct, there would be no difference between the suspending properties of light and heavier weight fork oil - but of course the former makes for springier suspension, and the latter can be used to "tame" that.

Shocks don't work by compressing oil. Piston inside shock moves with suspension travel and pushs oil through narrow hole. This narrow hole creates resistance, more resistance with faster piston movement.

Old oil might have lower viscosity ('thinner') which causes less restriction for piston movement. Old oil might also foam which causes less restriction and bubbles do compress with increasing pressure.

BR,
Antti

by ZekeVal Mon 10 Apr 2017, 3:45 pm

stormbringer wrote:Hmmm. I've now written an email to the nice folks at Öhlins, asking them if shocks are available for our bikes. I like the idea of them being repairable. And quality made. You may think it's daft to spend a lot of money on what can be had much cheaper elsewhere, but 'elsewhere' can't be renovated - and is much likely of a lesser finish etc overall.

We've all heard that buying cheap can become expensive over time. Will buying quality then be a better deal over time?

Also, I like the fact that this is not a far-east-el-cheapo-mentality-brand. They come out of Sweden, the home of Saab and Volvo.

Waiting for reply-mail...

@stormbringer: If you're looking for european-made high quality shocks, you could also consider Fournales, it's french (so I might be a bit biased Very Happy

) and quite unique: they don't use a spring but air instead. I've heard it makes the dampening quite unique as there is no "bottoming out" since the air compresses. You can just adjust the pressure using an air pomp. I've only heard great things about them.
There website is only in french unfortunately http://www.fournales.fr/
A pair for the CB500 would cost 600€ and they can be fully serviced for around 200€
http://www.fournales.fr/catalogue/2_Roues/BIC_-_Honda_-_Italjet_-_Indian_Scout_-_Kawasaki_-_KTM_-_Laverda_-_Montesa_-_Motobecane_-_MZ.htm

by ANDYC Mon 10 Apr 2017, 7:07 pm

Ohlins don't actually make shocks to fit our trusty steeds. I fitted the ones that Ohlins made for the CB400 superfour which were 10mm shorter but as they were much better quality than the original items there was less sag and the preload was infinitely adjustable. Which means that I could get the correct ride height regardless.
I had to cut out some of the tailpiece to clear the piggyback type reservoir but otherwise it fits OK and the ride is greatly improved by comparison.
In fact the only downside is that they are so expensive Shocked

by hh_12345 Mon 10 Apr 2017, 8:00 pm

trevor machine wrote: I know I've typed it in a tone that might well imply a degree of certainty or real knowledge - but I actually have neither. ; - )

Same here, apart from a little experience maintaining the suspension of my mountain bike (which is more sophisticated than the one on the cb) I know almost nothing about shocks. Smile

by ceejay Mon 10 Apr 2017, 11:39 pm

apart from a little experience maintaining the suspension of my mountain bike (which is more sophisticated than the one on the cb)

Same, the CB500 suspension is a joke compared to my mountain bike but then again compare it to a budget 1999 mountain bike suspension and the difference isn't so great!

I'm still on the original shocks which I suspect perform terribly compared to a pair of new ones but as I have nothing to compare them too I think of it as normal... if I could test ride some new ones and feel a big improvement I'd buy now but if I just bought without testing and didn't notice much difference I'd be disappointed so I guess I'm just waiting for mine to get worse!

I would take a punt on these far eastern made ones that others have installed for £100 or so but I'd like to hear from someone who has done big miles on them first to see how they hold up? Then I could figure out whether they'd be a force economy or not vs a set of high end serviceable shocks...

by wornsprokets Tue 11 Apr 2017, 7:18 am

Ive more than 10k on tec shocks... there good...dont see point on ohlins unless your doing track days...but i guess if you can afford them why not. What about maxton shocks or nitron has to be up there with or close to ohlins.

by **stormbringer** Tue 11 Apr 2017, 7:50 am

ZekeVal wrote:If you're looking for european-made high quality shocks, you could also consider Fournales, it's french and quite unique: they don't use a spring but air instead.

I'm looking for quality shocks. Repairable ones. Products fitting that description tend to come from anywhere but China or Thailand, who appear to be focusing on 'lowest price'.

Air! Haha - I've got a lifelong relation to Citroën hydraulic cars who in essence ride on air Smile

Your proposal is akin to offering kids candy. Little risk of getting a 'no'!

Website added to collection. As far as the french language goes, I'm a slow reader and an even slower speaker. Thank you.

by **stormbringer** Tue 11 Apr 2017, 8:06 am

wornsprokets wrote:What about maxton shocks or nitron has to be up there with or close to ohlins.

Maxton - Everything bespoke.
Nitron - All products made to order.

So much choice. Good Smile

by ceejay Tue 11 Apr 2017, 10:23 pm

Ive more than 10k on tec shocks...

good enough for me... I take it they've held up okay?

by wornsprokets Tue 11 Apr 2017, 10:50 pm

There grand....seriously just ask mile muncher james hambleton he has them. Ive yss shocks on blue cb's there rusty....what every happen to them i dont know there not leaking though. The tec shocks are very good ive done fork seals front&rear wheel bearings on dublin city pot hole streets tec shocks have lasted
[solved]Rear suspension - Page 2 20170220_174415_zpsebv3pz2p

[solved]Rear suspension - Page 2 20170220_174415_zpsebv3pz2p

by ceejay Tue 11 Apr 2017, 11:13 pm

Can't really argue with that... I take you have these ones... Shame they are out of stock!

by wornsprokets Tue 11 Apr 2017, 11:43 pm

Yep thats them...if i keep other cb 500's with very low height yss shocks....i be getting an other pair of tecs for it..to replace them .

by Jameshambleton Wed 12 Apr 2017, 8:08 am

wornsprokets wrote:There grand....seriously just ask mile muncher james hambleton he has them.

Thanks

Will be averaging 400 miles a week thanks to my new job

ceejay wrote:Can't really argue with that... I take you have these ones... Shame they are out of stock!

They normally come back into stock within a couple of days.
My only complaint about my tec shocks is that they come with rubber bushings (as per the original Honda shocks) and these perish/deteriorate over time. I've been looking into some nylon or glass fiber reinforced plastic spacers that may work, then again I doubt that many peoples shocks have to deal with the fast and bumpy roads of the Yorkshire Dales oh and my riding style.

I have recently however observed some rusting on mine on the lower body on mine but it looks the same as my front forks, just pitting from stone chips and the rust ring that forms around them, springs on the other hand are perfectly fine.

by Beresford Wed 12 Apr 2017, 12:41 pm

Jameshambleton wrote:My only complaint about my tec shocks is that they come with rubber bushings (as per the original Honda shocks) and these perish/deteriorate over time. I've been looking into some nylon or glass fiber reinforced plastic spacers that may work,

The TEC alloy ones I've been using for the past few years came with a selection of nylon bushes. They also came with a choice of springs and extensions all in the price!! At the time they were £80, though they are £99.99 now.

by trevor machine Wed 12 Apr 2017, 1:15 pm

How kind are the TECs to a rider's arse-cheeks?

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